Wait, so having your game published (if download-only is publishing) means you are not indie? That doesn’t sound right to me. If they were funded by the publisher or are owned for a large company then sure, but just getting published?

So 2D Boy isn’t indie? (WiiWare, Steam)
Blueberry Garden isn’t indie? (Steam)
Time Fcuk isn’t indie? (Newgrounds)
Can iPhone games be indie? I mean, Apple is “publishing” them.

I guess I feel like it’s about being _developed_ independently of the big guys, and how it gets published is a different thing.

Well being published is different from using a distribution service. For example:

2D Boy was distributed by Steam and WiiWare, but was a self published title.

Braid, however, was distributed by Steam and XBLA but was published by Microsoft.

The publishing aspects come in with the final funding of the game (usually QA) and marketing. That’s the primary purpose of a publisher.

Steam, WiiWare, XBLA, iPhone, etc. are all just digital distribution services and certainly having your game available via those services doesn’t discount them as being indie, but being published by Microsoft Game Studios may very well.

I think this is taking the term “indie” too far. Let’s make a distinction between independantly developed, and independently distributed. As far as I’m concerned, “indie” is a purely economic term: it means a game was developed without external resources or funds. That’s it. Braid was self-funded, so, it fits. It wasn’t until the game was done, that Blow took it to Microsoft to get it published on XBLA (as far as I know, they contributed no money to the development of the game itself). The only way to independently distribute a game, which is apparently necessary for it to fit your definition of “indie,” is for it to be self-distributed by the developer on their own website. I think that is patently silly.

Aw yes, but then that leads to a whole new line of where to draw the “indie” label. Takle, for example the Ratchet and Clank series. That series is fully owned and developed by Insomniac Games, however it is published by Sony. In fact, it’s often seen as a mainstay of the Playstation games catalog. As far as I can tell Sony doesn’t pay Insomniac to make these games, nor do they own any part of Insomniac. In fact, Sony has gone on record as saying they do not pay for exclusivity and that Insomniac simply likes to develop for Sony’s console.

I’m not sure about the latest entrants in the series but certainly in the beginning of the franchises life this game was fully developed and funded by Insomniac. Does that make this game an indie game?

See how the line starts to get a little blurry at this point?

So then, we should leave the definition of “indie” as “intentionally-trying-too-hard-to-be-artsy games made by one or few people for very little money,” then? :/

Also, I’d bet you plenty that Insomniac receives some sort of external funding, be it from investment groups, or whathaveyou.

True, it’s certainly possible Insomniac got money (I don’t have the facts to prove or disprove it). But wouldn’t it be easier to just say: “Hey this game is published by Sony so it’s not an indie game.” As opposed to needing to look up the facts behind the project and see exactly where the money came from.

I don’t know Jonathan Blow, but what I’ve read is that he invested $200,000 of his own money into Braid. I don’t refute that claim, but it’s possible that could mean he still borrowed money from somewhere, or that his family invested money, or any such thing like that. Meaning we don’t really know where that money came from exactly.

Largely, at this point in time, this kind of discussion is just semantics. As I’m sure you’ll agree. But down the road, as indie gaming gets bigger, it’s going to get called into question again about whats considered an indie game. And, like with many musicians and film makers today, it will become increasingly harder to figure out just what is “indie”.

Look at me! I can make articles stating things like they are fact without having any actual information!

“Largely, at this point in time, this kind of discussion is just semantics. As I’m sure you’ll agree. But down the road, as indie gaming gets bigger, it’s going to get called into question again about whats considered an indie game. And, like with many musicians and film makers today, it will become increasingly harder to figure out just what is “indie”.”

And, like I said, as it has done with movies and music, it will just become a synonym for “pretentious.” Just look at Juno for the ultimate example.

Aw very true… in fact I’d say it’s even beginning to happen as we speak. Have you read that one article by Something Awful?

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/indie-games-preview.php

Definitely catching a vibe from these games.

I loved that article. SomethingAwful at it’s best.

To be honest, I do not care if a game is indie or not. As long its good. I do not like the idea that because its “indie” I should give it [the game] more chance because of crappy story or visuals. I start a game, if its not appealing I do not play it. If people just give games what they deserve disregarding “how” and with whose “money” they were produced we would not have such articles.

I think an indie games is one that is not supported financially FROM THE BEGINNING of its development. Eventually if the game turns out good of course Microsoft or Sony would want to push them because they may sell good, the game is already made there is no risk. Its important who takes the risk in development. Also if they were not supported from the beginning it means that the publisher could not mess up with their game design or vision(which is what makes them indie). All indie makers would like someone to invest in their games when they are done (well, I mean all that want to make living from it at least).

You’re just plain wrong on Castle Crashers and Braid. They were both self-published on XBLA. Just because it says Microsoft as the publisher on Wikipedia doesn’t mean they published the games. You are forced to go through Microsoft if you don’t have a publisher.

http://jonnymeddy.wordpress.com/2009/01/02/crashing-the-castle-4-page-x360-magazine-spread/

I have one word for that fact that everything come out from crafting road when it start to embrace…
MASS PRODUCTION.

Even if you can’t put words on it, you can feel with your guts what was aimed at you to be a cash-hoover or a product from a “local” crafter. Until our mouths run dry, let’s keep one title at the tip of our tongues: Doukutsu Monogatari. That’s what crafting is. Communication also play a large part. I mean, even if you are only published by XYZ from mainstream, fact is: these guys will try his best to get the heads in (normal), hence will put out means to advertise it (which is the same as sponsoring). Is it still indie then?

I must say that I disagree with this article.

If the statements where true, small indie companies would no longer be indie as soon as the reached a great succes.
Especially Braid and Castle Crasher show that indie games actually is an evolving and maturing market. As traditional AAA csts keeps rising and the consumer behavior has changed and matured significantly over the last couple of years indie developers have the unique change to penetrate the world wide market. For maximum succes marketing and cross-platform releases are a neccesary need to make succes stories as these.

“If the statements were true, small indie companies would no longer be indie as soon as the reached a great success.” (I took the liberty of correcting the spelling errors. Sorry if that offends you.)

I’m pretty sure that’s what happens to all companies, in essence. Just because a company starts out with five guys in a garage doesn’t mean it will forever be an indie company. Pretty much any international company in any industry had to start out small. Take Square Enix, for example. When they were still just Square, developing their first Final Fantasy game, they were at a point of being what most people today would consider indie. Now, they’re pretty much the name in rpg gaming worldwide. Granted, this isn’t the best example, because they were developing for a console from the start, it’s still valid, in my opinion, since the industry was very different then.

My point still remains, however, that there is always a point where a company will transition from indie to mainstream, if they achieve enough success.

As an indie developer myself, and one without any of the publishing support or major marketing pushes from the likes of Microsoft, I think I can be fairly unbiased when I say that being published by a major publisher AFTER the fact should not impinge on one’s indie status. Now, with the specific examples above, I’m not certain if they had publisher support all along, but my impression was always that that was not the case. My impression was that they started with their own money, made a great game, impressed the right people, and then got a publishing/marketing push from larger companies after the fact.

I really don’t feel like that’s a reason to call them “not indie.” I think there are multiple types of indie developer, and even those that routinely have their games published, such as 5th Cell or Gas Powered Games, are still independent in the financial sense from what I have heard. But I’d be hard-pressed to call either of them “indie” in the sense that you mean it, or in which I generally use the term myself.

Really, I support what you are expressing with this article. Inflation of expectations for indie games is a really bad thing, and Braid and some of these others are really atypical and the public needs to realize that — they are unusually gorgeous, they have tons of support from large companies, they enjoy an extreme amount of press attention, and they make an absolute ton of sales and in turn have a ton of money.

In baseball, you’ve got the Majors, but then you’ve also got a variety of classes of Minor League ball, AAA being the highest there. No one expects the same thing from a AA team as from a AAA team or a Major-League team in baseball, and I think that having one blanket set of “indie” expectations in gaming is also not helpful. By the same token, it’s not good to just throw out the best of the best as not being indie — because even if they aren’t indie, they also aren’t AAA in the game industry sense.

I think it’s equally unreasonable for players to have the expectation that all AAA games will have the same level of polish as WoW, or GTAIV, or Uncharted 2. It’s unreasonable to expect all movies to have the same level of graphical effects as The Matrix or LOTR or the new Batman movies. It’s unreasonable to expect all books to have the same sort of mass appeal and excitement around them as Harry Potter or Twilight. The issue of expectations following landmark releases is something universal not only in games, but with entertainment and humanity in general. Someone does something exceptional and great, and then customers expect that sort of exceptional work/success/whatever from everything and everyone else that follows, even if that is not reasonable. That still doesn’t make them “not indie,” though. Maybe it’s time we start thinking about some way to classify indie games beyond one central, generic, “indie” label for such a wide variety of titles?

It seems wrong to measure “indie-ness” only in so few ways. The thing everybody seems to be missing is the impetus for these games. Almost every indie game developer are making games for the sake of the game itself.

Braid is a fantastic example of this. Braid is so unique in every way, it’s obvious Jon Blow made it to fit his tastes and his vision. Only later did he attempt to generate revenue from it. The economics of Braid are very secondary to the ideas that Blow wanted to express with the game.

Castle Crashers/Alien Hominid are modeled after older styles of gameplay because the Bohemoth guys loved those older games, Capcom beat-em-ups and Metal Slug sidescrollers, respectively. These games wouldn’t be as popular or successful as they are now if Bohemoth didn’t fully grok these styles and, I dare say, love them.

I’m toeing the line of calling these games art because of the sheer amount of personal style that indie games tend to have. Indie games are almost inextricably connected to one or a few autuers that aren’t simply directors or designers, but graphical artists and coders as well.

The whole reason I follow the scene is because of the uniqueness of the community’s output, and the personalities tied to it. When one of these games get published it is a joyous thing, because the devs are being rewarded for doing something they love, instead of chasing dollars.

It should be important to note, that for every single XBLA title, if you do not have an existing publisher, Microsoft becomes your publisher. This is done before the certification process, but after the initial approval of your game to be on XBLA.

They do not provide even remotely close to the same benefits of a standard publisher, and that critique of these games seems to be ignoring this fact.

Another note:

Before getting Microsoft as your publisher, you need to hit at least something close to Alpha. You need something to show off, and proof you can get it onto the Xbox 360 Hardware, which until then you are not allowed to see how, or recieve devkits. For an initial game, this means you have no devkits, and no support.

By the time Microsoft is accepted as a publisher (or even the request is made), the game is in such a complete state, it’s release is inevitable. The only question that remains how exactly it will be released.

Whoa wait, these games are still independently produced. It is within the independently-funded environment where creative decisions can be made without the third-party financial contributors dictating the development.

It’s 5:50 in the morning but I got to say I really enjoyed your article, Geoff. It is one of these interesting subjects that should not divide people but rather encourage them to gain another perspective, another point of view. Indie aesthetics, indie development, indie publishing, they all make sense on their own.
Personally I really like your division, it makes me appreciate “indie games” as something from A to Z done by the makers, with all of their sweat and love. But it doesn’t stop me at telling major gamers “hey, it’s Braid and it’s a great example of how good indie games can be”. So I believe it can work together and co-exist quite peacefully
And last but not least, what I found most precious, the article made me rise a question to myself. If I would ever release a game such good/popular/known/etc. as Braid, for instance, would I agree to Microsoft become my publisher (which at this very point I perceive as taking a short cut, choosing an easier way) or would I decide to do it entirely by myself. And it makes my day so thanks for that *thumbsup*.

Geoff, you’re everything that is abhorrent in the indie scene. You’re looking at it at a very narrow, not to mention, a business perspective instead of the honest intent of the devs to just make a game they want.

My definition of a true indie game is with their no non-sense, I’ll do whatever the f*ck I want attitude in realizing their creative vision, regardless of monetary assistance. You cannot get more genuine or INDIE than that.

guys, dont be dumb

indie = not supported by a big company/studio

it is just like in the movies. many “independent” movies go to sundance, and are not supported by the big traditional studios like MGM etc, but that doesnt mean there is not big money supporting them.

that is it.

I just wanted to say that I agree wholeheartedly with the opinion presented in the above article. I was asking myself the very same question – how can we call a 200K USD game with a major marketing behind it Indie? I know Indie comes from “independent”, but still.

Same for Castle Crashers, it’s not exactly something done by a bunch of guys scraping time between regular day work and family duties.

As much as I think these are delightful games, I wouldn’t exactly qualify them as Indie.

Just wanted to add a lil bit on Geoff’s edit. If you feel offended by an article, take a deep breath, then go out for a walk and have a think on what the article is talking about. Then post a comment.

I don’t necessarily agree to all that Geoff is saying here, but it sure raises some questions on indie being in the state of development, in publishing or if it is just a feel to the game, much like the industry of todays “indie” pop music, distributed with an image by sublabels to major corporations.

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